Proud Infidel ranting about the ongoing war against democratic and secular values (Don't fool yourselves)! Maybe a voice of sanity in a wide ocean of madness.


Fighting the system

As you all know, I have been having some health trouble for a while now. Thank god for our "free" health care.

The local has asked some reders of their opinion about taxes in Sweden. Are they to high?

Here follows the full article: (My responses in Italics)

Every week we ask a group of readers for their views on a particular aspect of life in Sweden. This week, we wonder whether Swedish taxes rock the panelists’ cradle or have them wishing for an early grave.

Graeme Newcomb

Graeme Newcomb

Paint me red and call me a socialist, but I do not think Swedish taxes are too high when one considers what one gets in return. [But what do we really get in return?]

In Sweden we have a reliable, modern and well-integrated public transport system and road network that has to cater for a very widely dispersed population [agreed- allthough they are almost all private companies]. We also have one of the most generous social benefits systems for parents and children including an excellent (and affordable) public healthcare system, [Well, having been in the system both on the in side and as a receving patient- I have to disagree. First of all; It's not free. You pay almost twice the amount in taxes for healthcare than you would for a health insurance in the USA- and then some. The bureacrasy is humungous, the administration costs 50% of the total. I myself have been in the system now for two months- the waiting lists are just incredible and they still have not fixed me] extremely long paid maternity and paternity leave [agreed], highly subsidised day care for children [Yes but I would rather have that money I pay in in taxes and stay home and care for my child myself]and, essentially, free schooling and university. [For everyone. That is why an unproportionally amount of the students are from abroad. Not only is the (higher studies) free, we also pay people from other countries to come here and study].

Our taxes have also allowed Sweden to invest in environmental strategies resulting in Sweden becoming one of the most environmentally friendly countries in the world. [Yes- the pollution here are quite small on a global scale. But we also pay the highest taxes in the world for it to be].

The only downside is that our taxes also have to pay for a very large and cumbersome public sector that lags a long way behind Sweden's private sector in terms of productivity. [Totally agreed].

Kristina Assouri

Kristina Assouri

There is an old saying that goes something like: “you get what you pay for!” In the case of taxes, I think we can all clearly agree that in order for government, any government, to provide for its citizenry, they need to collect some form of revenue (call it a tax in this case) for commonly used services like paving roads, healthcare, unemployment benefits, mass transit, to name a few. It becomes problematic when what you pay for is a lot more than what you get. [DUH!]

I have been paying into the Swedish tax system for about seven months now, and the rate based on the same income earned in the United States is definitely a lot higher and I am not quite seeing the direct benefits. [Duh- again]

But paying these high taxes really requires a person to make a decision to change one's lifestyle. If you want to retain more of your own hard-earned cash and pay for the basic necessities, then you are in the wrong country my friend. [My girl!]

If, instead, you trust the government to provide for those basic needs, then Sweden is the place for you. I can give you an example of me driving in a suburb of Sweden where the roads were so bumpy and the earth so uneven that I think the streets of Baghdad are better paved. [I think I'm in love!]

So my point is that I expect this in the United States. We know what the bureaucracy has done to that great country. But in Sweden, with nine million people, I expect the roads to be paved in Stockholm’s suburbs. [!]

As a foreign consultant, we are not afforded health insurance or unemployment benefits. So at the end of the day, it just doesn’t add up. In most cases, even the special taxes in Sweden are “taxed”. As one Swede put it in kinder terms, “in Sweden, we have a tax for literally everything imaginable”. [Speaks for itself]

Bureaucracies happen on many levels. But there is also no doubt that we don’t have caps or ceilings on our salaries. ["There is no doubt that the United States has perfected the art of bureaucracy."- Well sweet Kristina. Yuo just wait and see. I for instance have not got any sick leave money for almost two months. The orthopedist missed to send off the insurance note to Försäkringskassan. I actually had to get myself to the local office and turn in the papers just after the surgery. Fine I thought- now it's in the system. But noo, you see, it has gone allmost a week now and I still has not got any money. When asking a friend of mine who works for the Försäkringskassan what was up. She said that all insurance papers are mailed by snail- mail. Then it are supposed to be processed, and so on and so on. These people actually does not have a common data base! In this day and age!

Thomas Smith

Thomas Smith

In trying to relate how Sweden's taxes match up with taxes in the States, it is hard to define whether they are too high or not. In my own shopping experiences here in Sweden, it seems that everything is much more expensive, on top of the taxes being high. [No shit?]

But, in talking with friends who are from Denmark, I can honestly say that I am quite happy with the taxes here in Sweden. As far as Sweden using the taxes in the best interests of the country, I think that I would need to be here a while longer to fairly give an opinion on the subject. I do believe that, all in all, the Swedish government tries to do what is best for its citizens, but just like in the USA there is always room for improvement. [See above]

Igor Trisic

Igor Trisic

Many Swedes have told me that taxes in Sweden are fairly high but most of them are happy to pay them. For me, that is not a surprise since people can clearly see that their tax money makes a difference through arguably the most generous social security system in the world. See remarks abowe. Also, the ones to reap the fruits of "the most generous security systems in the world" are not indigenous Swedes.

They can see this in state of the art healthcare, good roads [HUH? Have you ever been out of the city core?] and railways, in child support and parental leave, and in well-functioning public services.

There is a fundamental question that every individual has to answer: Do you want that extra 6,000 or 7,000 kronor in your wallet or not? [Is that a trick question? Of course I would!]

If the answer is yes, than you should also be aware that you will have to pay for your own medical treatment, for example, while your housing support would be gone and of course many other features of the Swedish welfare state. [But a private healthcare insurance would only cost about half of that money! Also, with lower taxes you can get by with a lot less money. I really don't know what this guy is babbeling about.]

That’s why many Swedes would never take that money even if it was offered to them. It is safe to say that Swedish society made its decision a long time ago and I completely agree with the choices they have made. [Gah! It's called indoctrination! There are a lot of low tax countries out there where the people seems to get by just fine. Switzerland and Luxemburg or why not USA are fine examples]

Katarina Johnsson

Katarina Johnsson

Taxes in Sweden are indeed high when you add them up. There are “arbetsgivaravgifter” – fees that employers have to pay, and income tax for wage earners. Then you still have to pay VAT, property tax etc, etc. on the taxed money you do receive. [Yupp- Smart girl. We even have taxes on taxes!]

On the other hand, you get a lot for your taxes in Sweden. A safety net to fall back on if the wheels fall off, free schooling and university, a decent public transport system and access to free healthcare. I am really noticing the difference since moving back from the UK. [See remarks above]

I would however want to have a little bit more transparency regarding how and where Sweden’s tax revenue is used, rather than adhering to the “black hole” principle. I also see a lot of room for simplification of the system, such as introducing a capital gains allowance that is not taxed and allowing the first 50,000 kronor of income to be tax free. [Smart girl]

Daniel Nyström

Daniel Nyström

Yes and no. In general our taxes are well founded and provide a security net and services that are either not available or very expensive in other countries. [See the remarks above]

We do however have examples of (in my opinion) idiotic taxes, such as the "Robin Hood" tax for living in Stockholm and the "Trängselskatt" (congestion charge) for going to and from my workplace. To me, these are examples of failure and are the work of weak, dishonest politicians. [DUH!]

Other than this, you might question what our tax money is used for sometimes, like when the government decides to use it to implement surveillance of all citizens’ data and phone traffic. But more often than not the money is spent in a good way. [DUH! and WHAT?]

Emma Chataway

Emma Chataway

To answer the straight away – no. Although this doesn’t mean I wouldn’t flinch if they were increased. [?]

I think it’s much easier answering that question from an unemployed point of view. However, my Swedish boyfriend works full time and grumbles about tax quite often. Especially straight after buying a full fare bus or train ticket he’s quick to say that, since he pays more than enough in tax, transport should be free. [That last sentence is so stupid, I don't know even when to begin]

I agree, but I also think that the transport here is well ordered and that they didn’t accomplish this by twiddling their thumbs or running twenty minutes behind the bus timetable, which I’ve experienced back in Australia. [I agree. On a local plane- in the bigger cities- the public transportation are quite good. On the other hand; try to make a travel between the east and the west coast. The last time I did that I had to make five changes and it took five hours fortyfive minutes to make a 200 Km trip.]

Also, I love that Sweden offers several educational opportunities for immigrants like myself, even if SFI doesn’t work for everyone. From my point of view, taxpayers’ money does support the people in this society and when I finally get a job I’ll make an effort not to grumble about it too much. [Ok!]

Athanassia Fourla

Athanassia Fourla

They say that in life "nothing is certain but death and taxes" and this could not be truer than in Sweden. Swedish taxation is one the highest in the European Union. However, there is a big return on the money paid for taxes. Coming myself from a country with a lot lower taxes but also a lot lower return on the tax money in terms of services, I find taxation in Sweden very reasonable. [No- we have the second highest taxes IN THE WORLD. Only Denmark surpasses us now after the center-right government won the election. As for low tax countries, see my remarks above]

I believe that in general tax money is invested well. One has good, free healthcare, [No we have NOT!] unemployment benefits, social care, child benefits etc [Which all are not "free", especially not the unemployment benifits. You pay for it all even if you don't need it or use it- The social care system is a joke. You have to be a drug abuser or an immigrant to get any social wellfare (or a single parent). When I was studying at the university and rather unexpectedly was blessed with a son, I took a sabbathical year to care for him. I had no job or other means of income so I went to the social wellfare office to ask for some help until I got on my feets again. A micro loan would have suited me fine. But noo! I was not granted any help or money because I still was enrolled at the university, even though I did not take any classes. - do I have to give up my place at the medical school to get some help? I asked. The lady behind the desk just shrugged her shoulders and said -Yes!]. Although the Swedish social care system is not as robust as it used to be it is still very much ahead. I do not feel sulky at all when paying taxes I know that I get value for my money. [Really. In what way? If Sweden would be a state in the USA; we would be considered the poorest one.

Wellfare and wealth is NOT the same thing. But people (on the left hand sxcale of politics) just don't seem to understand it! A "robust" wellfare" system does not mean that people are wealthier. How hard can that be to understand?]

The Local ( 656 6518)


Blogger JMK said...

WoW! Those comments are so damned depressing! It shows that the majority of people can be conned into believing they're getting "something for nothing." That's sad.

Your commentary on each was priceless.

It should be noted that up to now, the health insurance for most American workers is paid by their employers (the claim that 15% of "Americans" are uninsured, counts about 15 million ILLEGAL immigrants, comprising over half that 15%, many of the rest work part-time or per diem) and is delivered as a tax free benefit - workers pay no tax on their employer-provided health insurance packages! THAT'S what so many are so willing to give up for a "French or Swedish styled bureaucracy" they know nothing about.

The biggest supporter of nationalized healthcare in the U.S. of course is business and industry that desperately wants out from under those costs!

And that's why ultimately we'll get it....we'll get it alright, with all the dysfunctional bureaucracy, the rationing of care and the limits on visits, etc. that come with such programs.

I'm concerned at the utter stupidity of people anywhere who think they get "so much for their tax dollar."

Bottom-line, government isn't run like a business, it doesn't care about cost overruns and such and just passes the extra costs on in the form of higher taxes and fees. When the people are too dumb to see that, they're, in effect, dooming themselves.

Sad to say, there is an increasingly insular "political class" is the West and they are functioning more and MORE like feudal noblemen and less and LESS like members of the general public.

In fact, at least here in the U.S., it's some of the most "Liberal" politicians who revile the general public most of all.

Tuesday, 9 December 2008 at 17:50:00 CET


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